How To Civilise Your Elders - Coercive Control

Follow up to How To Civilise Your Elders - The Air Horn Lie 

Published in the last week of 2022 was this typically lightweight, "cheery" site filler, the story of How I Deradicalised My Terf Mum, by Rivkah Brown at Novara, that [Bastani] bastian of alleged-Left media, fulfilling the faux-cialist need for political instruction, fluff and moralising screed.

They're really cool at Novara: all edgy polemics, yoof culcha, swishy hair and fierce street smarts.
It's a whole lifestyle, just like the actual communists would have. Ya get me?


Fellow kids

It may be worth pointing out that, though, that this kind of story - the genre of personal account by pseudonym - is often the work of a journalist without a story, and based on little more than an overheard conversation on the night bus.
Still, it's always telling that the 'bigot' relatives in these stories are pushovers, who, rather than tell the autocratic protagonist to go fuck themselves, fold at the pressure.
Even in their fantasy battles, the baddies are as affable and forgiving as a beaten puppy.

So, whether this story has any basis in fact is questionable, but either way this smarmy, intellectually vacuous article is, if true, a disturbingly manipulative account of the psychological abuse of a woman by her own children. One who's only crime is reticence in affirming her child's metaphysical belief

Rabbit Holes #2 - In The Class Known As Humans, I Include Men

In The Class Known As 'Humans', I Include Men

 

[This is a follow-up to Beyond The Terf, where I dunk the idiot's chant that terf is a self referential into the toilet and flush, several times]

The Sexual Rights Movement

The Sexual Rights Movement 

#SRM

So, first thing first - I got into gender critical feminism via a genuine concern for the people I know and have known - including trans people.

For far too long, I was confused as to why women who appeared to be saying rational, nuanced and inoffensive things were being mercilessly attacked by people I thought of as decent. And after being answered grudgingly with mantras, contradictions in terms, told I should read about it, - I did - I went to 'educate' myself. And everything changed.

Before, I'd held out an embarrassing benefit of the doubt (this was, in reality, doubting my own senses and downplaying my own dignity and safety after a lifetime of gaslighting) for appalling bullying, strawmanning and abuse, watching women being dogpiled and preferring - like Ayesha Hazarika - to be nice, accommodate and concur, or at least keep it quiet. 

But that isn't really who I am; I enjoy debate and don't shy away from disagreement. The obvious lies, transparent rhetorical tricks, the repetitive slogans and determined stupidity was burning at me.

So, given all this, I began compiling my own little gallery - almost to remain sure I had seen what I thought I'd seen. The final straw was when I actually thought back to all of the earlier assumptions, self censorship and cognitive dissonance I'd carried for so many years.

After living through decades of abuse from various men, starting from early childhood, I stopped subduing myself with drugs and alcohol and excuses; I got therapy; I learnt to acknowledge the unwitting part I played in my own oppression. And I realised, I wasn't living as the brave and outspoken type I thought I was. I understood I needed to question things more, listen to others, especially other women.

I also realised how deeply damaged I had been by my experience years ago with a purported transwoman. I finally allowed myself to see this person as the man I knew he was. I'd always disliked him, thought his behaviour was shocking and recognised he was scum, but what I hadn't done is speaak, even think, without self censorship. And I suddenly realised how screwed up it had all been, and just how wrong it is.

I had a son, and I realised how crucial my issues were to resolve, lest I pass it onto him and harm another generation.

This essentially boils down to actually showing integrity and bravery, not drunken, projected anger or shouting along with the mob. Listening and thinking a lot, feeling and acknowledging I was scared, and doing it anyway. Because it's the right thing to do.

I had to speak out on the harms of gender identity activism, for more reasons than I can [easily] list.

So this blog sprung up, between myself and my friend. It was meeting her and comparing eerily similar stories I realised what's actually happening to us.

We were both abused as children, both homeless before the age we could leave home legally, both serially sexually abused, drug and alcohol addicted, both accommodated with a sex offender who identified as trans.

Above all, I've met some incredible women. I was staggered at just how much other women, who appear so much better off than me or my friend, go through. I found it so shocking to realise just how atomised, how separate from other women I had become. Because of men. I never knew just how much we shared.

We, as women, can go through life completely unaware of the barriers we have between ourselves and other women. Sisterhood is a precious thing. Same sex spaces are sacred.

Of all the friends I've lost of the way, the vast majority see themselves as allies, rather than being trans. Some of my trans friends have shared this journey to a degree, and are equally angry. I love them more now, and while I won't always agree with them I appreciate their support. I also worry how they too will ultimately be impacted by this insanity.

They are not represented by the activists behaving as grandiose, misogynistic, arrogant, authoritarian maniacs. 

What is happening then, if those who actually commit to transition aren't being aided by the most aggressive activism around? I think it's deeply sinister.

As I'm quite the archivist, my devices are overloaded with screenshots of tweets, subreddit posts, Facebook comments. I am trying to sort them into a series of catalogues. There's something about galleries that has a particular impact. While we may be uninhibited on social media (unless you've reason to fear the thought police, like Marion Miller, Maya Forstater, Harry Millar etc) and it may show the worst extremities, it still illustrates a culture that many seek to dismiss.

This blog started with The Rich Fantasy, a list if trans identifying sex offenders, murderers etc. Now, rather than trying to match the exemplary work of Dr Em, Genevieve Gluck or Jennifer Bilek etc, I'm going to focus a little on one powerful element of this movement - sexual entitlement.

There's bound to be a tonne of overlap, but these will all be under #SRM = Sexual Rights Movement. I'm speculatively splitting it up into;

* Rape Victims & The Right Side of History, which is thus far almost entirely made up of responses to my friend and I when speaking about our experiences

* Autogynephilia 

* Sissies

* Porn & Kink

* Paedophilia & Bestiality 

* Sexual Violence & Misogyny 

* Sexualisation of Children

* Breaching Boundaries and Sexual Entitlement

Hopefully these will all be up within the next week or two..

No, Steph - Sexual assault is never 'minor'

Who is actually confused here?

Steph's got himself in a tizzy over my response to Karen White Was Not Transgender, *Steph's Place- Where to virtually everyone the truth matters, 

(My other yodels into the void are: 

*Steph's Place, Tone Deaf With a Straight Face 

 

*Steph's Place- where the facts are fluid 

AND

 

*It's another Steph's Place response )

Dear Steph, I wrote you but you still ain't calling...

And, thank you for the concern. I remain very lucid, I am in receipt of the facts. 

You were challenged with copious credible sources and asked entirely reasonable questions by many people. 

You were reassured that no one is linking you in any way with White/Woods. My only area of perplexity is why you continue to flog this long-dead horse. 'Karen White' is absolutely an over-referenced case - there are so many more - and many never go to prison because they are trans! 

Why continue this? Why show yourself up as so bereft of fucks for women? It's a strange pastime, that's for sure.

At least you didn't call us 'gender crits' (read - feminists and other women grounded in reality) hysterical, unhinged or delusional. Not out loud, anyway. 

So let's unpack quickly. 

Steph's assertion that White/Woods was not trans is founded entirely on the misapprehension (which I've explained twice now) that he only began to identify himself and present as a transwoman after being inprisoned. This is objectively wrong. If you hadn't blocked me, I'd reply to you, tagging in Jenny Ann Bishop of Transforum. She could tell you about old Karen from as far back as 2013. But I'm guessing you read my blog, and saw the statement from Bishop as well as White/Woods' former neighbours - one being a transwoman! Inconvenient, isn't it?

Steph's other bit of headline news was from a source who has an unexplained relationship to, and familiarity with, a trans sex offenders wing of a prison. They had the ground-breaking discovery that hardly any of the purported transwomen there are true-trans, which, obviously, put a very different slant on almost every other statistic! Compelling.

Minor incidents: Just wow. It was bad enough you displayed such disregard for these victims, that you minimised the incidents as you did. Now you call them minor. That sort of brutal erasure of the gaslighting, intimidation, forced sexual contact and all the trauma that creates and triggers is a red flag. A very big, bright red flag.

So, Karen is not trans, although I've no idea how anyone is assessed on the basis of an unfalsefiable claim, and the sexual assaults on the women forced to live alongside him were 'minor'.

“he would get special privileges to buy make-up on certain sites like Asos and he was allowed to use the internet to buy his wigs,” said Cheryle Kempton, who was in jail with White.

“We were never allowed to do that, so why was he?” she asked.

Kempton was in jail for a series of petty crimes arising from drug addiction. A situation ii understand all too well. You might  Steph, have a low opinion of these women, who have of course broken pretty critical elements of the gender expectations placed on women, but this isn't Bad Girls or Prisoner Cell H, and women like Cheryle are enormously vulnerable, and the removal of liberty is the punishment, not being predated upon by men.

Cheryle describes the shock at White's arrival. The size of him, the depth of his voice, the fact he never spoke about anything other than sex and this made everyone, even the hardest of the prison officers noticeably frightened.

Steph is, as my gran would have said, muttering both sides of his bread - the entire crux of his argument is White wasn't 'true trans' and anyway, it was only something and nothing. Touching a boob (as if Steph has ever understood the fear) now covers walking up behind a woman who can't escape, pressing an erect cock into her backside and numerous other gruesome acts. Fuck off.

Still, it was gracious of Steph's Place to correct the 'statistic' that a transwoman is sexually assaulted every thirty three and not every three days.

Which is no problem. I'll be the snopes of genderwoo. A bit. When the kids are behaving themselves, anyway. 

Also, a lesson was learnt on this side! It was silly of me to use copy and paste when sharing a live link, because they immediately update when amended - I, too, know better now! Isn't that great? It's like we're growing, together!

It seems hard to believe was a simple matter of missing the second (or first, who am I to be pedantic?) 3 digit, since you said it in both your pieces prior to this. Och well, it's only a small matter.

Not like the way you relentlessly downplay the sexual assault of several women in prison.

That really gives us an insight into how much you empathise with, understand and care about women. 

There's a visceral level that sexual violence strikes us on. It's ingrained since our first experience of it: often as children. The threat and fear of it is life restricting. We live with trauma - trauma that is triggered by many things; It's a pity transition doesn't require having an even rudimentary understanding of this. 

Lets talk about women in prison.

Women who; make up less than 5% of the prison population but account for over 19% of self harm incidents

Are more likely to have been imprisoned for non-violent offences and commit a vanishingly small number of sex offences

Women in prison are highly likely to be victims as well as offenders

Over half the women in prison report having suffered domestic violence 

53% report having experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child - compared to 27% of male prisoners.

(Prison Reform Trust)

Where 80% have suffered a significant head trauma - many of them repeatedly - 9 times out of ten due to male violence.

When have you heard any popular campaign try to help these women? When has a woman to be confined with Marie Dean or Jessica Winfield or Paris Green or Kayleigh Louise Woods or Alex Baker or, indeed, White/Woods, had a petition on social media, pleading for her dignity and safety? 

Are you aware of the case in America, where a transwoman in a women's prison has moved back to the male estate because of the constant presence of sexual violence from the guards? Pity the actual women can't move, huh?

Your website has its opening line thus:

"Welcome to Steph's Place, a website dedicated to feminist transgender women in the UK"

How 'feminist' is this? To studiously avoid showing any compassion for the victims of sexual predation? To now diminish it even more, after I pointed out how glaring this omission was?

You go on to say;

"But as I read more and more I started to appreciate that my human rights to be a trans woman were not being improved, they were being eroded!"

But, that just isn't true, is it? Why continue to push fallacies, showing not one iota of concern or respect to women in the most vulnerable scenario? 

It's not you who has to live with this. It's not you who has to flee domestic violence in the middle of the night, give up your pets and possessions, uproot your children and local connection to find a refuge. It's not you who is expected to cohabit with a transwoman who's had no medical transition, who could have any kind of history, having been forced to leave your adolescent son at social services because the refuge doesn't allow for males old enough to pose a threat.

The thing is, while you won't see a professional portrait photograph of me on here (or any - as your friend Julie Miller said, we have been harassed into the shadows. 'Cleansed' from society, in fact - always the right side of history with that chat, innit?) and I will not bore everyone with my autobiography: but I have been in a situation like that. You could never comprehend it, neither could many liberal feminists.

It's amazing how unimportant working class, uneducated and desperate women are. Women who's dignity and security isn't defended by lawyers or parents, isn't taken seriously by the police; who've ended up on the streets as teenagers. Or in refuges (we do tend to keep a low profile). Or in prison.

It isn't your life at all, and you never had to do any of this.  You don't have the faintest idea of the perpetual danger women are in from perverts.

You can very easily campaign for an advancement of your rights without displaying contempt for the welfare of women far, far more vulnerable than you can comprehend. Your name will now be associated with Karen White. With you dismissing his crimes as 'minor'. 

Is that a success for you? Are you trying to advocate for your rights, or pour scorn on ours? What have you achieved here, Steph's Place?

You even have a 'Truth and Lies' section, stating:

"There is probably no minority group in the UK that takes more negative publicity than trans folk"

Seriously? What about Muslims? Or travellers? How do you think travellers are reported on? Do you think that Irish travellers (a distinct ethnic group under attack for hundreds of years) get a good press, make the news for positive reasons? Ever? 

Tell me if you ever hear of a case of the police tracking someone down via social media after they used a slur like 'g*po' or 'p*key*. I'll wait.

I have a strategy here, however. I don't deny travellers have certain cultural issues that need addressing. I don't deny that there are endemic problems. What I do say is there is a reason for the antipathy and division. That the prejudice and persecution absorbed over centuries have caused deep mistrust and insularity. I point out the amazing qualities of travellers; the care for the elderly, the loyalty, the reverence for the dead and the heaps of charity work many do that goes unnoticed.

But, of course, it is worse for you:

"From newspaper owners who are transphobic and directs their editors to "slate" us - to exclusionary women's groups (sometimes known as Terf's or GC's or Gender Critical) - to even "Christian" churches who see transgender people as "unclean." 

Steph accused Transcrime UK of being a 'database of pure hate' which even logged people for driving offences. It wasn't exactly true, of course - it was a tag that grouped murders and sex offenders who used a vehicle in their crime.

Ah well.

"All these groups "throw mud" and, of course, some sticks. My community calls all exclusionists "Transphobes.""

Do you call all exclusionists transphobes? My god you must be busy, what with certain jobs requiring certain qualifications or training; with bus passes only being available to those of pension age; to child benefit only given to those with children. And of course you think I'm using hyperbole and sarcasm, but it's all the same principle - society requires checks and balances. You need to help some groups of people if you want anything approaching an egalitarian system. 

"This page is devoted to debunking the lies and rhetoric from the above groups in easy to read, short facts, almost like a FAQ page as seen on other websites. Any links will take you to pages with more detail"

This bit I've included just for shits and giggles. If you go along with the cult narrative of never look at anything from a feminist page, The Times, the Office of National Statistics (numbers, man? Why do we need numbers to talk about people in the 21st century?) etc and you block dissenters on sight, this may be exactly the place for you!

I still would like Steph's Place to challenge their own side, just a bit. Since the triggering has reached maximal clenching over this inconvenient story, it really might be worth asking people to stop saying self identification is the only true way of knowing someone's gender.

All the 'Acceptance without Exception' and 'you can't police other people's genders!' and talk of compelling rape victims to speak of their attacker with she/her would go a long way. Unless it's the tacit understanding that challenging the 'be kind', 'right side of history' is liable to end, well... badly.

It's another Steph's Place response - The last one. Promise

"5th June. 

Karen White Was Not Transgender

Stephen Woods aka Karen White used a false persona"

It would appear my review of Steph's Place's 'exposè' of Karen White aka Stephen Woods has resulted in severe triggering.

I did tweet Steph with the blog and ask for a response, but apparently he preferred to do the ironing (like a lady), thought I felt threatened and blocked me.
A week later, this appeared.

Julie Miller, another on Steph's 'team' was equally scornful, saying my use of the word 'nonce' to describe 'people who had committed suicide' was sickening. Thing is, I hadn't. I referred to nonces as nonces, and I steadfastly refuse to give them a posthumous pardon. One of them raped a four year old girl. No. Nicola Cope is a nonce, just like Jade Eatough, Marie Dean, the nonce formerly known as Nicola Florida and all the other NONCES.

Steph, no one is accusing you of being like White/Woods. No one. Please stop taking offence at the concern over the welfare of women. It does not look great on an elderly gentleman. 
Paul is also on Steph's team

Update! Steph's Paul has only gone and thoroughly debunked Steph's exposè with one blunt, hackneyed claim. Bloody hell, try to remember the company line mate. I just hope for your sake Steph doesn't see this. Or develops the logical cognition to understand the implications. Nerve wracking ..!

Original here, my ripostes are here and here
"It is funny how we all remember some conversations - "Oh, he was terrible", said a very high profile, gender-critical person to me once. She was referring to Stephen Wood, also known as David Thompson and more infamously as one Karen White."

(What is the point of this? 'Oh, he was terrible' is an anecdote? Like your underworld informants were... informed?)

"Karen White is one of the centre stones of 'terf ideology' - using an example of an individual case to smear the British transgender community."

(Here we go - accusing feminists of using smears while using an anti feminist slur frequently accompanied by rape and death threats. There's no such thing as 'TERF ideology'. There is radical feminism, and there is a broader recognition of male violence against women, and biological reality that permeates the whole of humanity - whether they chose ro admit it or not. But I see details, logical consistency and nuance are not strong points at Steph's Place.
Again, I'd like to know were you chanting 'not all men!' Before transition? Do you feel slighted by BLM activists?)

"To be fair, the gender-crits did not manufacture the Karen White issue - it was 'manufactured' by the reporting of the national press. "

(No, Steph, let's be honest - it was 'manufactured' by a grubby, amoral sex case who saw an opportunity that we have been warning about for years. It's nothing new, half of trans prisoners are sex offenders. Pretty concerning, especially considering how many times being trans has worked in mitigation and prevented someone being imprisoned)

"In short, anti-trans or sloppy journalists saw the words 'transgender 'sex offender' 'rape' 'attack' 'prison' 'women' 'trial' 'female estate' and 'guilty' - not looking into the actual facts of the case."

(Sloppy journalism? Please give me the tools to decipher between White and a 'bona fide trans woman'. Please tell me how I tell a transsexual from a cross dresser without the renowned genital checks.

You, Stepheny, got every single point wrong in your ideological screed. You know what's worse than not caring about truly vulnerable women? Using that apathy to maintain your grandiose, targeted ideological supremacy, keeping us in our miserable reserved places. You have a daughter, you say. What if she went to prison? Can you imagine having a child in that situation?
The hate for gender nonconformity is real - and there's few greater gender violations than for women to be incarcerated)

"A few local reporters following the trial did, but they were drowned out by the national press and, in particular, the right-wing newspapers who love to headline anti-trans stories."

"So the mud stuck."

(To whom? You genuinely think you're the victim here, even though no one associates you with White, even though you have a little clique with matchy-matchy haircuts, disposable income and time to focus on your pet projects. You are the victim, huh?)

"And today, three years on, we are still trying to convince the vast majority of people of the injustice the trans community feels of the Karen White slur."

(Oh, I know you feel it's an injustice. If only self identification campaigners had listened, huh? And if only you could manufacture a teeny, miniature fuck for the women who were seriously assaulted)

"So let's look again at this case and hope that some decent journalist from the national media will lay the Karen White ghost one day."

(This non-journalist has. And it's clearly triggered you, but what a pity you wouldn't respond to me, rather than dismissing me and blocking me...)

"The trial that got all the headlines took place in October 2018 at Bradford Crown Court.

The prosecutors were Mr Christopher Dunn, assisted by Miss Charlotte Dangerfield."

(Why do we need this filler? It's like you got nothing, but think it gives you an appearance of insight)

"The charges to which Stephen Wood (aka Karen White) was pleading guilty were that of multiple counts of rape, sexual assault, and unlawful (malicious) wounding. The earliest case of rape occurred in 2003, and previously Stephen Wood had served time in prison for indecent exposure and sexual assaults on children.

There was no question Stephen Wood had an abhorrent history of human abuse - he was a classic 'Category A' sex offender."

(Well now, considering a convicted sex offender helped draw up trans inclusion in prison rules, are you really that shocked?)

"But what went wrong that enabled Wood to get transferred to the female-prison estate?

Actually, several things."

(Self identification fanatics. Stonewall. Squealing wailing misogynistic bastards. An institutionalised hatred of women. 'Trans women are women' on blast every fuckin day. 'You don't get to police other people's gender!'. An incredible concentration on trans offenders who's background of rape and murder is obscured, while they are presented as victims . See the earlier blogs, Transgressions and They say they never feel safe but who are they?

Do you oppose this, Steph?
"Wood was very aware that the Prison Service procedures at that time (they have subsequently changed) meant that he could self-identify as a trans woman and easily get transferred to the female estate. This offered Wood two significant advantages."

(Here's who reviewed the policy that allowed this to occur: "Two external consultants were used to inform the review process. These were Peter Dawson (Deputy Director, Prison Reform Trust) and Jay Stewart (Director, Gendered Intelligence). The review gathered evidence from a wide range ... including many in the transgender community, and met transgender prisoners serving both long and short sentences. To our knowledge female prisoners who may be forced to live alongside male-born prisoners were not consulted and no organisations specialising in advocacy work for women were involved in the review (such as Women In Prison)

"The new transgender policy brought with it many welcome improvements ... However, the review also relaxed the rules. Previously to this, legal gender change (through acquisition of a Gender Recognition Certificate) and/or having had genital surgery were the main determinants of eligibility."
He got lucky - still, Jenny Ann Bishop thinks it's not a systemic fail -

"The case boards are a good way of doing things – you can’t say the system is wrong when it goes wrong once."

(A huge comfort to those women, innit?)

"It is almost the exception that proves the rule – you’ve just got to look at what went wrong and make sure it doesn’t happen again. No system is perfect. It’s human nature that people will sometimes get it wrong."

"Firstly he himself would be in a safer environment. The male prison estate is not exactly welcoming of sex offenders unless they are housed in an 'all sex offender prison', such as HMP Stafford for example.

(More filler. He's an old bruiser who loves a scrap and isn't who I mentally picture when imagining a scared inmate. He was also under serious non-sex offence charges - easy to pin it on stabbing, stare a few inmates down and live in relative peace. In fact, if you look at Transgressions you'll see one prisoner who raped and murdered a vulnerable cellmate to do just that - serve a serious sentence for something other than a sex crime)

"Secondly, he would be close to vulnerable cisgendered females and trans women - potentially more victims. As a remand prisoner, he also enjoyed more rights - bear in mind the sexual assaults that occurred while in prison were pre-trial.

"Wood, on self-identifying within the prison system as "trans", was subsequently transferred to HMP New Hall, Wakefield (within the female estate), where he then started to wear a wig and female clothing using the name Karen White."

(BULLSHIT. I told you he was presenting as Karen years before. Studiously ignored, but it's blatant. Jenny Ann Bishop (of transforum) spoke of knowing 'Karen' back in 2013 -

“When I met her she was at the beginning of her transition. “She seemed like somebody who was very much going to plough her own furrow regardless of the community advice, and she was going to demand her rights"

(Nice of Jenny to stick with the female pronouns, isn't it? And here's an excerpt from transgendersupport.org
"Before entering the prison system White was living in a social housing complex.
One of the residents said:
“We did not have a problem with her being transgender. We already had another transgender woman living here and we all got on just fine,” the woman said. “She was always calling the police accusing us of hate crimes against her")

"Within a few days, White began to cause upset, and allegedly four incidents occurred these were:

(1) Stood close to another inmate, touched her arm and exposed herself.'

(Herself? Is Karen a transwoman or not?)

"(2) Pushed herself indecently against another prisoner."

(You mean pushed his exposed and erect penis into a woman while in a confined space? From The Birmingham Mail)

"The complainant, while waiting, felt something hard press against the small of her back. She turned around to see the defendant stood there. She could see the defendant's penis erect and sticking out of the top of his pants, covered by his tights."

"(3) Kissed an inmate on the neck."

"(4) Made inappropriate comments about oral sex and then put a female inmates hand on the ‘Whites left breast’ so she could feel her padded bra."

(Sounds like you're downplaying this here. Quite a lot. These women had already been gaslit, were trapped and then assaulted)

"After complaints, White was interviewed about the alleged four incidents - but contested two of them. For the other two incidents where there was apparently witnesses, he agreed to plead guilty to the subsequent charges.

"And so to court where Christopher Dunn, the senior prosecutor, said these words about Stephen Wood's sudden claim to be transgender when in the male estate:

"Allegedly’ transgender. The prosecution says allegedly because there are smatterings of evidence in this case that the defendant’s approach to transitioning has been less than committed."

"Then Mr Dunn added

“The prosecution suggests the reason for the lack of commitment towards transitioning is so the defendant can use a transgender persona to put herself in contact with vulnerable persons she can then abuse”.

(Do you seriously think he is an aberration? Why are 48% of trans prisoners currently serving time for sex offences? Do you not think it at all possible he was getting a kick out of the dress up? You don't believe he could be diagnosed with autogynephilia / transvestic disorder?)

"The national press did not report these vital facts and statements. There was an image of White in a wig, and that was it - he was trans.
(Bullshit. Here's your much hated The Times "Rapist Karen White in women's jail was trans faker". It contains this sentence:

"The government is holding consultations on proposals to allow people to “self-declare” their legal gender. Campaigners fear that opportunists will exploit the changes to gain access to protected female spaces."

(And you really should focus on preaching at your own, culpable, choir)











("White entered the UK prison system as
transgender" Says the Guardian

"The Yorkshire Evening Post reported differently - but what chance have they got against the coverage of The Times, Daily Mail, Telegraph, The Guardian et al.

None.

And more to the point, newspapers HATE admitting mistakes.

"Even in high profile cases, eventual apologies are often buried in small print on page 19. In short, newspapers can very often print whatever they want, and they can get away with it!

(White/Woods was identifying as trans before prison. However, most outlets reported on him as a predatory man who abused the system)

"In sentencing, the judge Mr Christpopher Batty said:

"You are a predator and highly manipulative. In my view, you are a danger. You raped two women. You sexually assaulted two more. You stabbed an elderly male in his home. You don't accept any responsibility [for the offences]."

"Stephen Wood serves his time in a male prison - but thanks to him and the errors of the prison service, bona fide trans women serve their time in male jails too.



(Ok. Both Alex and Danielle above say they are women. There are many more self identifying transwomen who have made no medical transition whatsoever.
Is that a women's prison they would go to, or a men's? What about your friend Julie who identifies as a woman half the week? How many adjustments are you expecting the prisons to make? What about non binaries?)

"And before we get into any gender critical cries of ‘well this is exactly what we said would happen with Self ID!’ let’s just firmly put a stop to that right here - prisons are a unique environment where we, as those who have a genuine respect for the safety of everyone, are making it clear that a problem existed but it is unique to prisons.

(That is such a lie - No one made an exception for prisons, EVER. Find me one example)

"This is an isolated area..."

(Except for all the other cases like Jessica Winfield, Kayleigh Louise Woods, Alex Baker, Paris Green or any of the many, many here)

"...where there is clear evidence of cisgender men identifying a genuine advantage to lie and take on a trans persona - there is simply no evidence that there is anywhere outside a prison environment where they have identified a similar advantage - they can already dress as a women to gain easy access to any women’s space but the clear evidence is they don’t see this as a viable opportunity in everyday life."

(Seriously, really? Not to be a Girl Guides leader and take girls away for the weekend? Not to get off within earshot of women in their bathrooms and changing rooms? There's so much evidence of it...)

"This is an issue unique to prisons and we have no issue in highlighting this.

"What is however just as important to note is that this vile case of Karen White was 3 years ago, yet still his crimes are thrown at us time and time again as if proof of the danger trans women are - 3 years on and not only is the example used incorrectly as he isn’t transgender but none others have been highlighted - so it just proves how rare it is for such crimes to be committed by trans women."

(Why didn't you check out our other blogs, Steph? Seems like you're extremely well barricaded into that echo chamber, it must get a bit stifling and smelly. Here's one of prisons - like all the others, it's completely backed up with links to original sources)

"Cisgender men still represent the genuine threat to women’s safety and ‘Karen White’ is just another clear example of that MALE cisgender threat."

(Are Dawn Love, Nicola Cope, Ella Davies, Jessica Ann Smith, Tiffany Scott, Jacinta Brooks, Aza McKinnon, Pauline Long, Davina Ayreton, Jessica Winfield, all the ones in the Rich Fantasy blog also 'cisgender'? Can you tell me how to spot the difference?)

"Everyone - cisgender and transgender has the right to be safe while in prison."

(Yes! Yes they do)

"Sadly though, on average, a trans prisoner suffers a sexual assault in the male estate every three days."

(Erm, that article says there were 11 sexual assaults against trans people in prison - just under one a month... Did you think we wouldn't look?)

"Do the gender-critical care about this horrific fact?

No, of course not."

(Don't be silly. You're the one dispensing zero fucks for the women abused. We want you to have trans only wings. Your side says no, it's not affirming enough)

"They dont care that trans women are threatened, beaten, raped."

(Projection... You are the one making this about transwomen. No one else. You are the one playing down the sexual assaults on incarcerated women, who suffer appalling rates of sexual abuse, violent trauma etc from men.)

"They don't care that Karen White used a trans persona - its works for their agenda to ensure White is branded "trans."

(Lies - the point that self ID removes all safeguards and will be abused is frequently cited. And dismissed by hollow laugh reacts, mocking and misogynistic slurs)

"We uncover the full and true situation of transgender crime stats and UK prisons in this feature article:"

https://www.stephsplace.uk/fair-play-to-women-and-transgender-crime.cfm

(To be perfectly honest, I can't be arsed with this now. It's too low hanging and just grim. Anyone reading these blogs will know just how unflinchingly wrong you are. I'm leaving the nonsense Steph so defensively promotes now. Maybe they can move onto something positive)

"Honesty matters"

(To who? It does matter to me - That it's genuine, that it's not a stack of tedious, cherry-picked bollox tarted up with a heart in a logo, a head tilt and grandiose, faux-objective hyperbole)

"Truth matters. "

(Regurgitating mantras like a rabid brexiteer won't convince, Steph)

"And the truth is Karen White only took on a trans persona once entering the prison estate. "

(Proved that's bollox tho, didn't I? Over a week ago, and showed it to you for a response)

Authored by Steph @PlaceSteph (murdered link 👻)
Steph, this is bad. But not just that. You're arrogantly centring your own feelings, as a person not affected, over the horrendous crimes of White and the hundreds of other cases in the UK alone. It comes over as deluded, self aggrandizing and utterly devoid of any concern for women - I fail to understand how you can so egregiously ignore them, while staking claim to that same being yourself.

Anyone genuinely interested in the failures that led to this atrocity, here's a copy/pasted Times article why was a convicted paedophile housed in a women's prison?

Steph's Place - where the facts are fluid!

"The middle ear infection which was never resolved, and other mysteries" from the head-tilted Steph

Update! Steph's Paul has only gone and thoroughly debunked Steph's exposè with one blunt, hackneyed claim. Bloody hell, try to remember the company line mate. I just hope for your sake Steph doesn't see this. Or has the logical cognition to understand the implications. Nerve wracking!!!





Steph's masterpiece is available in original form here

Steph's Place is a site I was unaware of until yesterday. It has recently proudly unveiled the project that is smashing verified data by 'vile groups' and making a lot of big claims. Thing is, it's a bit shit. I saw this last night and decided to hold it to a basic standard of blog-worthy accuracy and veracity, and it was not good.

We begin with this charming anecdote;

"I was eighteen, and my dad burst into the kitchen screaming I had used his spanner and not put it back. But I had not touched his spanner, and a massive argument broke out - none of us like being accused of something we did not do"

Moving stuff. I'm unsure, however, of how Steph has been accused of anything.

This rebuke will come in two parts, with the second here. I've rushed it a little and may update bits, but Steph's article is so riddled with fallacies, diversion tactics and ad-homs I had to say something. It is replicated here in full.

What makes me laugh is this is meant to be a team effort of great proportion, whereas I've spent a couple of hours examining it and, well - you make up your own mind. I initially began by providing lots of links to creditable sources, but seeing this completely unsubstantiated drivel I got bored. I'm afraid it's gonna be a long one.


***

"So, in the ‘TERF War’ – also known as the ‘Gender War’ a toxic war of words and hate -

'War of toxic words and hate' - also, of women losing their safe spaces to males, being told their most intuitive responses to danger are bigotry, being labelled and thus abused as TERFs, having male sex offenders reported and recorded as women - that too.

...made more explosive by gender-critical (alleged) feminists...

Alleged feminists? Is this to assume your take on feminism, after a few years 'living as a woman' while collecting shill points for trans activism, is 'intersectional' - i.e. not about women?

"...binary thinkers

Good one...

" ...and Christian extremists to counter UK Government proposals of making it easier for transgender folk to change our sex on our birth certificates – I as a trans woman, am deeply hurt when the gender-critical activists, start throwing transgender sex offender statistics at me.

Whereas, I am deeply hurt, too. Deeply hurt that the privacy, dignity and safety of the most vulnerable women is completely drowned out by wailing walls of devout, middle class misogynists calling basic rights of women exclusionary and hateful.

'Oh, we're not accusing you personally' is their cry, but facts are facts.

Thanks for that, Steph. They are indeed. Now, how did you feel about the rhetoric of men being the major rapists and murderers and child sex offenders - before you became Steph, that is? Did White Fragility compel you write defensive whataboutery?

"Fair Play for Women and Woman's Place UK (WPUK), and others, tell us you transgender women are just like men."

Got a quote for that? I think you may be confused - the crime pattern of males is distinct from that of females and doesn't change after transition.

"And the gender-critical's takes this exceedingly seriously – one vile group even hold a database that shows an image and gives details of 'alleged trans' (often very masculine looking) offenders."

Ok now, Steph. What do you think of the UK Database, which lists sex offenders? Wrong? Does it make men look bad? 😞

We are told that we can't be the judge, that self identity trumps all. Stonewall, as I've explained before, have a no-border definition of trans. Much like Rihanna, they can stand under your um-ber-ella, they can stand under your um-ber-ella, ella, ella, a, a, a...(presumably more letters for the alphabet people)

And they provide 'support' and advise across the public sector, vilifying wrongthink and potentially misrepresent the Equality Act. So, do us a favour and take it up with them. They will not listen to us women, especially feminists aka 'TERFs'

"Yes, they record abusers - but will go so far as even record driving offences!"

Hmm. Now, Steph, I gotta say I thought you were chatting shit - but I just had a look, and by jove you are correct! Driving offences like these:


Daniel (Sophie) Eastwood: Assault/wounding, Murder, Stalking/
Harassment/Threats

William Wotherspoon: Arson, Kidnap, Murder/manslaughter.
Jeffrey Mitchell: Assault/wounding, Child sexual assault, public indecency, rape, stalking

Clive Watson: Assault/wounding, violent offences, burglary.
Lawrence Balshaw: Child sexual abuse, sexual offences, violent offences, public decency offences.

Craig 'Emma' Bowman: Assault/wounding, stalking/harassment, violent offences
Ronald Logan: Public decency offences, sexual offences

Dawn Love: Bestiality, extreme pornography, possession of weapons, Child sexual abuse while driving a fucking car.
Kristian 'Krystal' Churchill: Child sexual abuse, Kidnap, maliciously driving a car into two women leaving them with life changing injuries.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the entire list of 'driving offences' on Transcrime - please, look for yourself

"A database of pure hate – that is how toxic this ‘war’ really is."

Pure hate, you say? Listing serious offenders, with original sources, to give solid examples of what is actually happening?

If facts constitute 'pure hate' it at least puts this 'exposè' of yours in a much better light.

"And somehow, I feel dirty and ashamed - I know I shouldn't, but I do. The veiled accusation is that all trans women are predators.

That is not true. The clear accusation is sex cases are abusing the insanely dangerous and stupid ideology your side is advocating so hard for.

"Still, somehow, I have to write this article defending or explaining why a small minority of transgender people commit crime and more specifically, apparently commit sex offences.

No, Steph. What you should do is accept that not every other trans identified male is as innocuous as you, with the sympathetic head tilt and somewhat dishonest smear on feminist organisations.

"The organisation that seems to publish most of the statistics is Fair Play for Women - and their presentation of them certainly appears weaponised, to say the least.

As in, directly addressing the point? As in, looking at the negative impact of this godforsaken ideological capture?

"For it is undeniable that statistics can be 'twisted' to make all sorts of different cases. But statistics are a bit of a strong point for me.

Ok, remember this bit...

"So, after months of research, talking to people on the "inside", if you excuse the pun, I can challenge the figures that Fair Play for Women and others publish. In fact, after extensive research, I think I can prove that transgender people can hold their heads up exceedingly high.

If you can, I will gladly throw the towel in right now. I don't actually want to be abused constantly, misrepresented and subjected to smear campaigns for being worried about, well, basic safety. I genuinely have preferred subjects in life. I enjoy knitting and taking the piss.

"But let us look at the overall crime figures first before driving down into specific detail.

The critical issue is how many trans people there are in the country and until the 2021 census results are announced, we don’t know that for sure.

Thanks to Fair Play for Women, we might stand a chance of finding out! Not to say trans advocacy organisations didn't fight it every step of the way.

"Some argue the figure is 0.6% of the population, while others suggest the figure is much higher at 1.5% or even 2%. For the point of this article, I am using the model of 1% because I honestly believe this is reasonably accurate, and it is the figure used by most people these days.

"As of June 2020, the cisgender population of England and Wales was 58,524,840, and 79,290 were in prison. The offending rate meriting a prison sentence is 0.1355%

Ok, now, sadly Steph mate, I feel the need to list all the times trans identity has worked in mitigation against a jail sentence, but I can't (although here I've collected 40 cases).

Here is but a quick selection from The Rich Fantasy blog -

Denen Anderson; searched online for film of babies being raped and murdered. Had a hoard of child abuse imagery. Was not sent to jail because of 'safety concerns'

Alex Smith/ Burren. A very long history of child molesting, has a conviction for raping a small boy and multiple charges of child abuse imagery. Threatened suicide when home was searched and was not jailed due to... safety concerns

Angel Gomes. Convicted of controlling prostitution (i.e. pimping). The judge deferred sentencing saying “I bear in mind that for anyone in the transsexual community, imprisonment may be very harsh.”

Dawn Love. Rape and sex assault of girl. Extreme pornography including child abuse imagery and bestiality. "Despite having a long list of previous convictions, including two suspended sentences, and the offence crossing the custody threshold, Judge Christopher Critchlow opted not to send her to prison for her own safety"

I honestly can't recall a case where a trans sex offender, or any kind of trans offender, hasn't used their perceived vulnerability in mitigation. It often works.

"Another way of presenting a statistic is to say that trans people represent just 0.61% of sex offenders in prison. Yes - 99.39% of sex offenders in UK prisons are cisgender!

Steph, you know trans people are less likely to go to jail. You can't compare the entire trans identified population of Britain against the numbers of sex offenders caught and sentenced while pissing about with facts. It's totally dishonest.

"But digging into the Ministry of Justice (MOJ) policy document, I found more very fascinating facts.

" The journey of a convicted trans offender into prison starts after sentencing. Unless prior arrangements have been made (which are rare), the prisoner is automatically transferred to the estate as per their legal gender. In other words, a trans woman without a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) enters the male prison estate. Trans men are taken to the female estate. Prisoners with a GRC are treated in their legal gender. However, just one per cent of trans people have a GRC, and the MOJ policy is that trans women, even with a GRC, can be housed in ANY prison.

Right. But you are on the side of a campaigning network that has not only skewed the remit of judges, threatened them with culpability of suicide in jail, celebrated and mourned nonces who have committed suicide in jail but also makes an unholy backlash when anyone trans is sent to the jail of their corresponding sex... The prison allocation rules set up were with Gordon Pike, a convicted sex offender

"In essence, this policy though, provides a sensible starting point. Prisoners should be housed in relation to the risk they pose to others and then other relevant factors considered. Section 4.67 of the policy document reads:

"It may be necessary to locate a transgender (male to female) woman with a GRC in the men's estate."

Aye. And that is what we want to see enforced, mate.

"The fact that the Prison Service can and do house trans women offenders in the estate of the MOJ’s choice makes a mockery of gender-critical women’s groups' objections to Self-ID in relation to the Gender Recognition Act reform.

No, it doesn't at all. Self ID has crept in under the law. You know it, I know it.

"In fact, the MOJ policy just reflects any service provider's legal right to discriminate against a trans person if they have reasonable grounds to do so as set out in the UK Equality Act 2010.

The equality act and its exemptions that Stonewall want to be removed, that all of the trans rights activists claim are archaic, cruel and dangerous?

"Within fourteen days of entry into the prison system, a 'Local Transgender Case Board' (LTCB) must convene to discuss the best way to care for the new trans prisoner. This board also considers in what estate the prisoner is to be kept. As a trans person, I would like to think these board members are experts in everything transgender.

'Experts in everything transgender'? Ah, you mean trained via the Stonewall Diversity Champions, don't you? Or by you, or your friends Claire Prosho, Katie Neeves, "Julie" major Bernard McClean "Miller", Sophie Cook or any of the massive cohort of ost middle age transitioners who suddenly become experts in "transgender" and the equalities act.
You mean so deeply entrenched in genderwang bullshit they believe a blonde bob and puppy-like head tilt renders someone female?

"But they are not. The MOJ say in section 3.10 of their policy document in relation
to safety, risks and risk assessment and those who make the decisions: -

"Decisions are free from bias, follow a clear, recorded process and are undertaken by staff who have a sound basic awareness of transgender identity".

"So basic - that all is required to sit on an LTCB is a run-through of an online eLearning module!

What? No. I imagine it means being primed for the 'sensitive' issues; knowing how a suicide would look on the governer; having a good awareness of optics in regard to the fevered bed shitters in camp trans.

"The LTCB consists of a minimum of four people - a prison manager as Chair, together with a Safer Custody manager, Offender supervisor, and one other. It is possible to increase the number of people on the board, but it is not mandatory. The transgender prisoner gets to put their case to the board but may sit in for only part of the meeting.

When do they ask the women in the prison they want to transfer to?

"Bearing in mind, the trans woman prisoner may be forced to wear everyday male prison uniform when attending the meeting is concerning. Surely bonafide trans women would want and should be able to present to the board in female clothes of their choice? But more on this issue later.

Erm, yeah? I don't give a fuck. Wear whatever you want to, as a wise woman once said

"The risk to other prisoners, staff, and the trans prisoner is by far the paramount consideration of those sitting in the LTCB.

Especially the risk to the trans prisoner, who has a hell of a lot more voice than any of the actual women inside. So, not really 'paramount' when dangerous offenders are permitted to share education, employment, substance misuse and free-time to associate with women because they need that 'peer support' from women. (More here)

"The written procedures in themselves are reasonably sound. The board will consider evidence such as advice from a GP, a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, medication, pre-sentence presentation, personal documents etc. But the fact remains that the people sitting on the board make decisions with no real knowledge of trans people.

Are you and bestie Katie Neeves (another 'I'm now trans and it's given me a whole new career!' disciple of gender) offering to do some training? Maybe you could get Diversity and Equality Trainer for Merseyside Police Carol Lea involved

Or, how about they have professionals with knowledge of offenders and their manipulative techniques? How about those who understand the impact on the women who will bear the brunt?

"And more disturbing is the fact that a prisoner only has to say they are trans - and they are treated as trans. Not put in the female estate for sure - but certainly to be considered a "trans prisoner." And the MOJ policy allows this. In section 3.4 of the policy document, it states:

“Individuals managed by HMPPS are able to self-declare they are transgender."

" While it is perfectly reasonable in general for trans people to Self-ID in general society – operating a Self-ID system in prisons, which can lead to all sorts of situations, seems irresponsible. The fact is a convicted prisoner can Self-ID in prison, but a law-abiding transgender citizen cannot even change their birth certificate without going through a huge administrative process!

Well, I can only imagine the shit storm which would engulf the Ministry if not being able to change your birth certificate left you as vulnerable as we're told the trans prisoner is. One is about changing a bit of documentation to smooth over any hitches, erase biological truth. The other is a matter of life and death goddammit...

"Training in gender issues within the Prison Service is pathetic - not all prisons have a psychologist, and even if they do - they are not trained to Gender Identity Clinic standards.

Gender identity clinic standards? Ahh, the affirmative model! How about you try out this salient advice from The Chair of British Association of Gender Identity Specialists;

"The ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard."

"If a trans woman is recommended to be housed in the female estate by the LTCB, it does not mean they will automatically transfer to it. Their case is then referred to the Complex Transgender Case Board (CTCB). The CTCB consists of a Chair (a Prison Group Director) and a Psychologist, Head of Women's Team, a member of the Prison Service Equalities Team, and attendees for a Local Case Board.

Are you going to mention this didn't happen with White / Woods? No. Oh well.

It didn't happen with White. You should understand that pertinent fact and give consideration on why.

"Again, this sounds impressive, but again, none of these board members are gender identity specialists – including, of course, the Psychologist.

Yes, it is terrible that prisons which often don't have much in the way of education, any meaningful rehabilitation plans, which run presently on 23 hr a day lock up don't have the exact specialists attuned to all the nuance of queer theory and pink and blue brains.

"Still looking at the MOJ document, other statistics can be revealed, collected by the MOJ in April & May 2018. 44 of the public and private prisons (35%) housed one or more trans prisoner.

" 19 trans women are/were housed in the female estate, meaning that 84% are/were housed in male prisons.
Of the 139 prisoners, 114 claimed a female identity, 19 claimed a male identity, and 6 would not disclose.
But when asked "In terms of HOW they self-identified" out of the 139, only 89 would give a response.

Let us unpick this. How did you get the 19% are in women's prisons out of that? How are 114 of a female identity, when only 89 gave an actual response?
A more recent document, still two years old and via the BBC, has this:
"Last year, there were 163 transgender prisoners in jails in England and Wales, 129 of them in men's prisons and 34 in women's prisons, an increase of 30 on 2018.
Most self-identified as female"
And it doesn't include those with a GRC. Why didn't you use this?
Or - well, this is awkward, but have a gander here;


The US Bureau of Prisons says 48.47% of male inmates who identify as women are sex offenders, although only 11% of all male prisoners are.

"I found this incredibly strange. 50 people not even giving an answer to a very straightforward of "how" they identify. Certainly, the 114 said they identified as female in an earlier question, but beyond that, they did not want to provide any details. Why?

Because they don't have to. Because they don't have to even share whether they have a GRC.

Although, I must admit I underestimated Steph. They actually can carry one thought through to another... It's all the cogs turning in the lady brain what causes the asymmetry.

"So, then I reached out to people "in the know." People who work, have worked or have served time in prisons. I discovered there are eight prisons in England and Wales dedicated to holding sex offenders. In at least one LGBT+ prisoners occupy a completely separate wing.

It's not completely separate; they come into contact with women in the gym and during courses on education, religious study, faith awareness and substance misuse as well as in employment, even though they are deemed an 'unmanageable risk'. You would probably benefit from reading Fair Play for Women without letting your eyes twitch everywhere with the stress of it.

"In this particular prison, I received excellent information. I was told by an insider, who has huge knowledge about transgender people that just one-third of trans prisoners actually identified as trans – the other two-thirds are cisgender but claim they are trans and have been given automatic trans status by the MOJ because of their self-declare policy.

No way! If feminists had just said 'the problem with self id is it creates a no-border definition of trans. And when everyone is told trans women are women, and we aren't allowed to challenge anyone, and we are told no one would abuse this to predate upon vulnerable, trapped women, there's going to be an influx of predatory men!'

Honestly, I kick myself for not saying this!

It's also a brilliant sleight of hand to go with the 1% statistic for the general population but then compare that to your own 'source's' much reduced number. I'll try to remember that, for the next time I feel a bit... gaslighty.

"The info from my insider was then backed up by a transman ex-prisoner who served time at New Hall a women's prison in Leeds at a similar time to one Stephen Terence Wood the sex offender Fair Play to Women et al - like to quote.

'Quote'? They don't quote him, for fuck's sake. What particular Karen White quote comes to mind when you see his pig-n*nce face?

Also, Steph mate; did you speak to any women not indoctrinated with your spurious crock of shit ideology? And is it really ok to have people deny other people's identity? Did you not know "One in 50 inmates in adult male prisons claims to be transgender or transsexual, according to HM Chief Inspector of Prisons"?

"And I then started to look at different years statistics to double-check patterns.

" I also wanted to begin to promote this article, so in a draft blog I wrote this:

"Several things are becoming apparent, though. One is that sex offenders, who may or may not cross-dress from time to time are Self-ID’ing as trans. While it is true cross dressing does fall within the very wide Stonewall trans umbrella, Nancy Kelley (the CEO of Stonewall) herself confirmed when giving evidence to the Women & Equalities Committee that what Stonewall considered ‘trans’ and what the government should consider as ‘trans’ – can and should be different.

Oh my god, mate... The advice Nancy Kelley gave to the women's and equality committee was given on the 17th of March this year. The phrase furiously covering one's arse whilst contemplating an escape slide down granite and salt mountain springs to mind.

"Cross dressing is certainly one route many trans people discover their true self but at what point they become ‘trans’ is highly debatable. From my first wife’s experience of running a ‘Dressing Agency’ for cross dressers over many years – I know many have no intention at all to change their status and that only a small proportion is into autogynephilia.

More of Steph's excellent sources! 'Anecdotes!' they scream at me while I try to explain how damaged I was by a trans LARPer in a hostel, as I desperately tried to recover from rape. Steph though, Steph has people in the proper know...

"Sex offenders are very different.

Hate to break it to you, Steph - there's quite a well documented crossover between autogynephilia and paraphilias which are against the law to act out...

"An example would be Stephen Wood aka the infamous Karen White, an individual who had a long history of being a sex predator. Wood, while identifying as a cisgender male committed various assaults and committed rape as early as 2003.

Nope. Not true. "White entered the UK prison system as transgender". Jenny-Ann Bishop of UK trans rights group Transforum 'who met White at a Transforum support group meeting in Manchester about five years ago, said: “When I met her she was at the beginning of her transition.' The Guardian in one of the most heavily cited articles on White (top of the page when I tap 'Karen White' into the search engine)

"He started wearing a wig whilst in HMP New Hall, after suddenly claiming he was transgender and being transferred from the male estate. Being on remand he had not been put before a Local Transgender Case Board and was free to wear what he wished.

" Within days of being housed in New Hall, Wood exposed himself to a female inmate and made lewd comments about another female inmate grabbing her hand and put it on her breast saying: “Oh look, they’re not real ones.”

Are you quoting, here? Why the female pronouns?

"During his trial at Bradford Crown Court on the 17th of October 2018, Wood pleaded guilty to three counts of rape against two women and two counts of sexual assault against the female inmates in New Hall.

"During the Wood’s trial, Prosecutor Mr. Christopher Dunn described Stephen Wood as: -

“Allegedly’ transgender. The prosecution says allegedly because there’s smatterings of evidence in this case that the defendant’s approach to transitioning has been less than committed."

Mr. Dunn then added.

“The prosecution suggests the reason for the lack of commitment towards transitioning is so the defendant can use a transgender persona to put herself in contact with vulnerable persons she can then abuse”.

Following Stephen Wood’s conviction, the Ministry of Justice said: “there were ‘strict safeguards' to prevent abuse of the way transgender prisoners are managed and attempts to undermine the system were rare.” Evidence, however, does not fully support this statement

Were you not just citing all the different boards a trans identified prisoner must go through, the Equality Act etc?

"...and whilst the MOJ did apologise for the Wood error and subsequently change procedures as outlined in the January 2020 policy document I am quoting from within this article - the MOJ still has significant shortcomings.

Steph, telling us how the law could be interpreted, running on definitions from 'sources', changing statistics to suit your agenda and then placing your own little caveats in to make you sound reasonable is all very understandable, but I call bullshit.
What was your response to the story that police in Scotland will record self-submitted gender over sex when a person has committed rape?
Did you agree with the TERFs?
What did you say when women complained? Have you supported the case of FDJ?

"There are many advantages in prisons to why some cisgender sex offenders, who are known to be highly manipulative, allege they are trans. I do feel it important to state right here that the risk of male sexual predators pretending to be trans women is used as an argument by those ‘gender-critical’ in an attempt to ban trans women from women’s single-sex spaces.

They use that to say that women deserve at least basic protection in supposedly women's spaces? The Machiavellian monsters!

And, why are you arguing this? People do pretend now? And what about the ones who are not pretending? White is apparently arguing for a sex change. Paris Green has had one. Donna Perry even went to have one before being convicted of the multiple murders of women. Surely having full sex reassignment surgery means they are authentic?

"However, there is simply no evidence this happens outside of the prison’s environment – the evidence I discovered relates purely to the practice inside prisons where genuine benefits tempt apparent cis men to lie this way.

Hmmm. Are we to believe that men never pretend outside of prison, seriously? Mark 'Melissa' Addis, Katie Dolotowski, Tyler Porter, Christopher 'Jessica' Hambrook, the numerous cases where men have cross dressed and attacked?

"One such benefit is for their own safety - not being close to non-sex offending cisgender male prisoners is a bonus.

" Let's face it; sex offenders like Stephen Wood are the lowest of the low. In prison who would want to declare "they are in for raping a woman?"

True. I guess though, he isn't forced to. He changed his name a few times, and was also in for multiple violent crimes. And, as we've established, he was 'she' all those years before...

"Saying you are trans can offer protection. Trans prisoners are meant to have extra protection - meaning they are not always mixing with everyday criminals. There is no such thing as 100% protection though.

There is something in prison called the numbers, however. The 44's. The VPU - Vulnerable Prisoner Unit. Granted, they are not all sex cases but it's where you'd go if you were found out. Somehow, I can't picture White/Woods cowering in his cell. He's a massive old bruiser who loves violence and I'm sure could find some vulnerable prisoners to pick on. This idea of honour among thieves is a bit clichèd. It's often better on the numbers; these are prisoners actually deemed more respectable by screws - they don't tend to be as overtly aggressive, as hostile or uncooperative.

"Then, there are all the ‘extra privileges’ trans prisoners are allowed - makeup and the like - valid "currency" inside a prison. A currency that can buy sex from a genuine trans woman who has had complete sex assignment surgery.

Or, in fact - a woman prisoner?!

"And this is the main reason why the sex offender who knows all the ‘tricks of the prison system,’ Self -ID's as trans - he gets access to bonafide trans women as well as an 'insurance policy' for personal safety. They know they will not get access to cisgender women

This is how you deconstruct the Karen White story - saying men pretending to be trans 'know they will not get access to 'cisgender' women'? Karen White did. Alex Baker did. Nicola Cope, Kayleigh Louise Woods, Paris Green, Jessica Winfield did...

"- but getting access to trans women is the next best option and is incredibly easy. And this practice puts bonafide trans women at a huge risk!

Apart from all the bullshit here, all the obfuscation and drawing our sympathy away from THE WOMEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTED to transwomen, who you are calling mainly fakers, I agree.

"Highly manipulative sex offenders, like Stephen Wood often spend years infiltrating into positions of trust, wanting to get close to kids and women. Teachers, scout leaders, sports coaches, and yes, even those in the Church are the favoured careers for sex offenders.

But no one would fake being trans to skip the normal scrutiny!

"As stated; the one thing cisgender male sex offenders don’t appear to do is become a trans woman in society – purely because the amount of effort to “pass” is so incredibly high, and they are very unlikely to succeed.

Yes, yes it's the passing which counts. 

Not at all the protection one can get from being outwardly 'trans', what with dead-naming and outing taboos and the whole born again concept.

"Just to say “I am trans” to the MOJ though, is too easy and wrong.

But for Girl Guide leaders? To access a rape crisis centre?

Why is it too easy for prisoners, who are in an already tough environment and can't escape, but not for, I dunno, Mridul Wadhwa?

"The prison population averages at 79,500, and around 13,350 are sex offenders. I am told by my inside sources that around 70 sex offenders say they are trans women - in truth, about 20 are bonafide trans women – meaning 50 are cisgender.

You fail to get even basic details right, then ask us to trust you that this 'source' with intimate, unexplained information on the trans sex offenders wing is right in dismissing over 70% of them as transtrenders?

"And note the tie-in - remember those 50 who refused to tell the MOJ how they self identify.

Sorry mate; you're gonna need to do some writing worth us taking you seriously for me to believe that your sources aren't Claire Darbyshire and the mouse in your purse.

I see reliable sources put it this way, or like this;
"The BBC reality check team confirmed that 60 (48 per cent) of the 125 trans prisoners in jails are sex offenders. That compares with 19 per cent in the prison population overall. Yet, since women commit only 2 per cent of sex crimes, out of 8,000 women prisoners there are only 125 sex offenders. So if the 60 trans sex offenders were housed according to gender identity, it would create a sea change in women’s prisons. There would be 50 per cent more sex offenders; they’d be male bodied, physically stronger and have committed far more serious crimes, including 27 rapes, 13 sexual assaults and seven charges of sex with a child"

"It was all beginning to make sense.

" Twenty bonafide trans women sex offenders as a percentage of 13,359 sex offenders equate to 0.15% within 0.01% of the number of trans folk in the prison system, which you will recall, according to the MOJ figures is 0.16%.

Thank god we've finally found an arbiter, some one who can sort the cheat from the non-chaps and rearrange the deckchairs...

"So here is a suggestion to the Ministry of Justice and Prison Service: How can you tell a genuine trans woman and what estate they should be housed. Because the current methodology and identification issues lead to difficulty in establishing 100% accurate statistics.

Steph, no one can.

"(a) If a trans woman prisoner has a medical history of gender dysphoria and lives as a woman before the offence date for which they are convicted, then yes, that is fine - they are trans and yes, record them as such. If they cannot prove they lived as a trans woman, they are cisgender.

So, that would be Karen White. Jasmine Hill. Ella Davies. Jessica Ann Smith. Jacinta Brooks. Nicola Cope (who was told by the judge that since SRS had been done he couldn't imagine Cope posed a risk! - of course you know now the chair of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists says this is a lie), Sally Ann Dixon, and the many, many others, all 'true trans'?

"They should be housed in relation to all appropriate safety checks.

" (b) And if they "come out in prison", then help them - but do not consider putting a trans woman in a female estate for some years. Nor for the sake of statistics should they be recorded as transgender, as this gives 'ammunition' to anti-trans organisations - the real concern - These people said they were trans after committing an offence.

"(c) And if they are not a sex or violent offender, pose no risk to women, had bottom surgery or are on hormone therapy, and present as "female," - then, yes, they should almost certainly be in the female estate.

So, Tara Hudson, as a violent offender, should not have been in the women's estate? Good to know.

"Because what is happening just now is occasional cross-dressers

Per Stonewall definition...

" and many who refuse to identify are automatically placed in the prison estate as per their legal gender but being counted as "trans."

"And the sex offenders that know how the system works are "working their ticket" to access genuine trans women just by saying they are "trans."

To 'access genuine trans women'? The complete erasure of women and our true vulnerability here is incredible. What about the women, Steph? Women who have different crime patterns, and different motivations, who in prison have a 65% rate of brain injuries from male violence?
In fact, look at this;

"Females have lower arrest rates than males for virtually all crime categories except prostitution. This is true in all countries for which data are available. It is true for all racial and ethnic groups, and for every historical period"

"Females have even lower representation than males do in serious crime categorizes"

"Aside from prostitution, female representation has been greatest for minor property crimes such as larceny-theft, fraud, forgery, and embezzlement. The thefts and frauds committed by women typically involve shoplifting (larceny-theft), "bad checks" (forgery or fraud), and welfare and credit fraud—all compatible with traditional female consumer/domestic roles"

"And in consequence, statistics are being grossly distorted by the MOJ – leaving anti-trans rights, gender-critical organisations able to produce statistics as they do.

Well... You haven't demonstrated that, have you? I thought you were a hotshot with statistics? Not sure how convincing your anonymous sources can be taken as you minimise the rate of trans prisoners to a more palatable number, continue to ignore the women prisoners and play that teeny violin for 'genuine trans women'.


"But what of the trans folk in prison.

" One transgender woman sent to a male prison was Tara Hudson. She headbutted a man in an argument and was initially sent to male jail even though she had lived as a woman all her adult life. On release, Tara said: -

“I felt like I was being persecuted by the state… I felt I had no rights. I felt like an animal in a zoo.”

"And I can fully understand her point. Whilst women’s’ prisons normally allow convicted prisoners to wear their own clothes – this not the norm in men’s prisons, where on arrival your personal clothes are taken from you and you are given a male prison uniform. The potential psychological damage to a trans woman in a male prison robbed of her clothes and put in men’s clothes is truly immense.

Are you going to squeeze in even a glimpsing platitude for the women who have no choice but live with these people?

"I tried to put myself in Tara’s position and I am positive I could not have coped.

"And if they are not a sex or violent offender...and present as "female," - then, yes, they should almost certainly be in the female estate"

- Your words above.

Hudson had eight previous convictions including for battery. After first claiming self-defence they pleaded guilty on the first day of the trial after headbutting a bar’s manager when he refused to serve any more alcohol. The bar manager needed dental surgery as a result of the attack.

"Another person who transitioned but this time in prison is Sarah Jane Baker. In total, she was in jail for some thirty years. She told Inews:

"I have lost count of the things that happened to me inside.

You can see my scars. I was in a male prison for the entirety of my sentence, and that is a dangerous place to be as a trans woman. I’ve lost count of the things that happened to me inside. I’ve been cut with razor blades; I was stripped and pinned down. I had boiling hot water, and sugar poured all over me. I got stabbed.

In Wakefield, I was raped.

In Feltham, I was gang-raped. The group stuck a pool cue in me.

The staff would not take responsibility for my safety. They said: “Well, what did you think was going to happen?”

The MOJ said it would create a transgender wing, but it ended up being a prison segregation and punishment bloc. But when calls were made to move a trans sex offender, there was such a backlash the handful of us already in the complex were robbed of the chance to move.

My struggles with my gender came to a head when I was inside. Although I was allowed access to makeup and hair products, I was not permitted oestrogen. To access it under the terms of the Gender Recognition Act, I needed to prove I had lived two years as a woman. But for me, serving a life sentence, that was impossible. I decided enough was enough and resorted to drastic measures in December 2017, I cut my testicles off when I was in my prison cell.

There was so much blood, I nearly died. But it meant the clinic had to give me oestrogen. I could not cope any more. Without testosterone, you end up with the same conditions as a woman would risk of breast cancer, osteoporosis, so it had to be balanced out. I will be on oestrogen for the rest of my life."

Ah, so transitioning in prison might be legitimate? 'Sarah Jane' Baker abducted and tortured a man. When inside he attempted to murder another inmate - that was in 1998, and he got a nine year tariff for it. I wonder why Baker served so long? Baker has claimed a lot of things, including numerous accusations against prison staff that were denied.

"A prison is indeed a dangerous place for trans folk - both trans men and trans women. In the last ten years, deaths in prisons have doubled. The death rate of a trans woman whilst in prison is 0.8%, nearly three times higher than cisgender women, which over ten years (2011 to 2020) average at 0.28%. Trans women deaths, invariably by their own hand, include:

And compared to other male prisoners? Men are more likely to commit suicide. To be honest now, I'm irritated as I am clearly making a far larger effort to look at facts, and I'm gonna chill a bit. Suicide in prison is a serious issue. Prisons are in a state.

"Vikki Thompson (HMP Leeds Oct 2015), Joanne Latham (HMP Woodhill Nov 2015), Jenny Swift (HMP Doncaster December 2016), and Jade Eatough (HMP Parkhurst August 2017). No one can deny that some were indeed very dangerous people and should be in prison, but Vikki Thompsons’s case was tragic – she was just a petty thief sent to a male prison. Catherine Smith, at that time the Shadow Equalities Minister said in Parliament this about Vikki’s death:

“Given that I raised quite recently [this issue] with the Tara Hudson case, it’s devastating the issue has come back again so quickly but with tragic circumstances. The reality is that sending women into men’s prison to serve sentences would shatter even the strongest person.”

The Prison and Probation service report concerning Vikki’s death stated:

“Ms Thompson was originally sent to Leeds, a male prison, in line with existing national instructions, but this was not reviewed. We are concerned that a men’s prison might not have been appropriate for a transgender woman who had lived with a female identity for ten years.”

“The equalities team held two multidisciplinary case conferences about how to manage Ms Thompson, but no one considered the possibility of a move to a women’s prison. Despite her particular needs as a transgender prisoner, no one from the equalities team or any healthcare staff attended Ms Thompson's ACCT case reviews”.

But there was no one to weep except perhaps a few family and friends.

That tends to be the case for all of us, Steph. The intersection of oppression you're looking at here is more tightly centred around drug addiction, the care system, prison and general underclass brutality. It is awful. 

Still - 'some were very dangerous'?

Vikki Thompson had robbed a mother and daughter. That was the crime, which included assault. Vikki Thompson assaulted and robbed two women, one a teenager. 'Petty thief'?

Now, I agree Thompson is a tragic case; bought up in care, a troubled young person with an addiction. I would say Thompson was a victim of a failed child and mental health services, a failure to adequately address drug addiction and presumably parental failure. 

It's sad, it's a system-wide failure and I can't imagine Thompson was in a good place to begin with. 

Suicide is high in the trans community. Dysphoria is suffering. In addition to this, Thompson was just 21 at the age of death. How were they a "transgender woman who had lived with a female identity for ten years.”?

Joanne Latham never applied to join the women's estate (neither did Thompson - according to prison equalities officer at inquest, Thompson had declined a transfer because female prisoners would be “bitchy”).

Latham had repeatedly gone back and forth on whether they identified as a woman. They were in prison for the attempted murder of a woman. After this they tried to murder another prisoner by poisoning their tea with mercury. After this they stabbed another inmate in the throat.

Jenny Swift had beaten a man to death.

Jade Eatough sexually assaulted a woman, then found a 15 yr old girl, forced her at knifepoint to a desolate area and raped her.

I notice you missed out Nicola Cope, who was found guilty of nine charges of rape and four charges of sexual assault on young girls. One was just four. 

Cope took his own life while in a women's prison. Didn't do him that much good. Luckily. 

Any weeping for these people? Not one passes your arbitrary criteria for living in the women's estate.

"And there was no organisation “Fair Play for Trans Women” to scream from the rooftops.

Oh no! Yeah, just Pinknews, Stonewall, the fawning and omission of every single headline from The Guardian to The Independent. Look at the response to habitual sex offender Marie Dean. Sisters Uncut hijacked the vigil for a murdered woman to deify these 'women murdered by the state' for fuck's sake.

"No right-wing press wanting to highlight that trans women took their lives because the conditions for trans women in prison (especially in the male estate) are so traumatic that they decided to end it.

Suicide among the trans identified is high, wherever they are. I'm sorry that the right wing press isn't sympathetic to your pet project, I can't imagine how that feels! It really is shocking they too do not put your favoured cause front and centre like every other part of the media.

"Everyone has the right to be safe in prison, but a transgender prisoner is sexually assaulted in an English or Welsh jail on average every 33 days - the UK press does not want to highlight that either. If those statistics were true of cisgender women in prison, the right-wing press and Fair Play for Women would likely be shouting at the top of their voices.

Incredible. So, where is the sympathy for the women abused by White/Woods, Winfield/Ponting? Have a little look at the blog I mentioned 'The Rich Fantasy Self ID Endangers Women' and, I dunno, maybe find something factual to show that Fair Play for Women is incorrect about 48% of trans prisoners being sex offenders. Because 'my mate knows 'em, and they're not really trans' ain't cutting it for me.

"When in prison trans prisoners rarely give any trouble.

Not heard of Tiffany Scott, have you? Or Sophie Eastwood? Paris Green, who's had to be moved twice from the women's estate. Or Kayleigh Louise Woods, or Marcia Walker, or the other Alex Baker, who has been shagging inmates in men and women's prisons... "Jessica Winfield, a double rapist convicted under her previous identity of Martin Ponting, was moved to a women’s jail after having a sex change. Two months ago, Winfield was reportedly segregated after making “inappropriate advances” to female prisoners." Or, maybe read this.

" In April of 2020 Baroness McDonagh, a Labour Party Life Peer in the House of Lords wrote a written question (number HL3198) the text read:

“To ask Her Majesty's Government how many sexual assaults have been carried out by trans prisoners against women prisoners and prison officers in prisons in each year since 2010; in which prisons any such assaults took place; and in each case, what action was taken against the perpetrator”.


"The reply came back just two weeks later. There had been no sexual assaults against prison officers in ten years and just five assaults in the ten-year period against other prisoners.


Really? Funny you say that, because according the FDJ her complaints were ignored. And FPfW have had numerous Freedom of Information requests denied so, well, I'm glad you found the information you wanted.

We knew Rory Stewart 'mis-spoke'. It doesn't negate the real point that trans self identification puts women only spaces in jeopardy though.

"We do not know if the perpetrators were trans women or trans men or if the attacks were against other trans inmates.

What exactly are you saying? Trans men might be responsible, since everyone knows they cannot be transferred to the male estate due to the obvious risks? And, why does the 'gender identity' of the victim matter?

"What we do know is that close to 300 sexual assaults are reported in English and Welsh prisons every year so to put in context over the next ten years some three thousand sexual assaults will take place.

What's a few more, eh? How about this for official statistics;


"Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show.... Transgender inmates make up about one per cent of the 3,600 female jail population but are responsible for 5.6 per cent of sexual assaults in women’s prisons"

I may not be the statistical wizard you are, Steph. Can you do the opposite of 'weaponising' this and make it look good? You do understand, with all your people in the proper know, that male-to-female trans prisoners with a GRC are not recorded as trans, don't'cha?

"Five transgender perpetrators in ten years in the female estate – likely THREE THOUSAND by cisgender people ones across the prison estate as a whole.

Men. They will mainly be men attacking others, like how males make up the vast majority of inmates and sex offenders...
Not to mention that female prisoners are now given reprimands and punished for "misgendering". I wonder if that impacts reporting sexual assault?

"This article paints a very different picture compared to what the gender-critical media and transphobic women’s organisations want the public to believe.

Which 'article'? The one I'm eviscerating right now? And why would we 'want to believe' this?

" For there is no doubt transgender people suffer not only injustice and discrimination but worse still – persecution.

And this persecution means they should be able to move into the female estate, and their impact on statistics hidden as well as is possible. Oh, and whatever objections these 'gender critical' 'alleged' feminists have will be transphobic, of course.

"Are all trans folk saints? For certain, no - and I want to stress that I certainly don't advocate cisgender women being put at risk.

What are you advocating for? At no stage in this crock of shit show have you displayed even a cursory concern for women.

"But the next time Woman's Place UK or in particular Fair Play to Women publish a negative trans article, let us all remember everyone has an agenda.

Ha-fuckin-ha! An agenda? An agenda like trans women are women and should be waved into any space they so please, coopting rights and cursing the group of who's space and rights are appropriated as bigots committing hate crimes? An agenda like spurious bullshit poured on official statistics? With sophistry like 'of course violent transwomen shouldn't be in the women's estate' next to sob stories of violent transwomen in jail. Like how you think transitioning in prison is suspect, but list all of Baker's alleged grievances and avoid mentioning any of the crimes they were in for?

"And that in the toxic, and totally unnecessary gender war - statistics and databases can be presented in devious and exceedingly hateful ways"

You, Steph, have given absolutely no argument here. You contradict yourself throughout. You show not one solitary fuck for the plight of women in prison while plying us with the mental images of suicidal transwomen. You obfuscate and sanitise, give us spurious 'reinterpretation' and still offer no solution.

'Totally unnecessary gender war'? Women have been sexually abused and terrorised while incarcerated.

I have a solution. It is that as well as making drastic improvements to the prison services, mental health services, for 'looked after children', drug addiction and the conviction rate of sex offences, we have prison wings for trans people. Just don't put them in with those of the opposite sex. That would make a difference to the motivation of cynical 'transtrenders'.

Is there a problem with that?

Maybe we could also think about other vulnerable prisoners - the obviously gay, the weak, the naive, the mentally and physically ill and ones with learning difficulties?

Maybe we should have people who have a real understanding of criminal offences and not indoctrinated ideologues in the position of making decisions? Maybe having campaign groups who omit salient facts, having Stonewall dispense potentially illegal advice to the public sector, having a screeching background of trans advocate doesn't actually help when making decisions on the safety of all prisoners?

I hope you respond to this Steph. I look foward to it.

UPDATE -

 
Steph will not respond, as preferred to do the ironing that evening - then I was blocked. Steph, it didn't mean you had to do so the same evening. Considering this took you four months, I wasn't expecting lightning speed.

Our conversation on Twitter is here



Julie is also unhappy, believes this is devoid of facts (you too are welcome to give a substantive response I promise to show here) and believes I am disturbed.



Julie then invokes some rather unpleasant language in this stinging rebuke;


It was, we eventually discovered, half-the-week-Julie who sat next to Steph in a Pompey park, talking of squirrels flying South for winter. 

Steph's super-special inside knowledge that there's only a score of "true" trans in the UK prison population is from Major Bernie McClean, aka Julie Miller (Bernie ceases to exist from Friday to Monday, morphing into the stunning and brave Julie) who does the occasional prison voluntary work with trans prisoners. Miller-McClean lives in Ringwood, hants. So I'm sure from this gets a fully rounded view of the prison populace.